smacfarl

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TROPHY CASE


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Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago* [-]

I will take the time to answer your accusations point by point. I will expect you to do the same.

You have yet to quantify anything. Don't atheists respect science, reproducibility, and accuracy. Isn't the whole point of the scientific approach to eliminate ambiguity and insinuation and replace it with undeniable and quantifiable fact? Please provide links and numbers and refrain from using terms like "plenty" or "a lot" without clearly stating with links as your evidence the scale and measure.

"Pharisee questions" - who gets to decide what's a legitimate question and what's not?

First let's define the terms. If you had read the post you cited you would see that I clearly define what I classify to be Pharisee questions.

These are technical questions which often have obvious answers in scripture and Christian daily experience that are designed to implicitly present a negative subtext about Christianity. The idea is for the casual reddit reader to read the question, never click to the discussion to get the answer, and come away thinking Christianity is full of contradiction, fallacy, stupidity, or dangerous evil. These questions are then used in Atheistic discussion forums as background for the atheistic recruitment process. Which largely revolves around making Christians a "Dangerous and Deadly Outgroup" against which the budding "reddit atheist" can structure an emerging identity in the online discussions there.

Is it hard to identify these type of questions? No. Top comment karma getter in the thread and atheist account prium states.

This I have never understood. I have been an atheist all of my life, and answers to the type of questions you are talking about are pretty unfulfilling to a casual reader like myself, as they make reference to scripture(obviously) and it all seems very dry. Someone who asks these questions does not care about a rea response.

My response to this comment is

Someone who asks these questions does not care about a rea response.

They may. Jesus never stopped answering these types of questions, and he was constantly confronted with them, which is why I call them "Pharisee" questions. In fact the whole multi-century history of Christian apologetics, which has been with us since the 1st century AD, is a systematic attempt to respond to these very same issues. If more of the early works of Christiandom were online, which by the way Eastern Orthodox communities are much more versed with these, we could cite the far better answers, rather than having to rediscover the wheel for ourselves, not that modern Christians don't benefit from the rhetorical dojo workouts. Almost every single "Pharisee" question has already been asked and answered long ago.

What is unclear about this? Account prium obviously understands this.

I've noticed plenty of submissions

Provide links and give numbers. Do your homework.

There are a lot more Christian trolls here than atheist trolls, yet you completely

Again provide the links and give the numbers. Do your homework.

An awful lot of members here will gleefully call any disagreement "trolling".

Again who cites what and how many? Where are your links and numbers.

There are a total of 3 accounts banned from this subreddit and they were all doing the same thing- passively aggressively spamming the same comments, in the same style. At the minimum this behavior was a clear violation of reddiquette. The whole point of the post you cite is to announce the beginning of an atheist inclusive process to publicly and transparently establish a community policy to decide exactly what type of behavior is appropriate in this forum. One account's troll may be another account's truth. What is trolling as well as what is acceptable behavior is exactly what has yet to be established.

"I have never seen an online ethical code of behavior that more than a small fraction of reddit atheists would adhere to. Which doesn't speak well of this particular community"

What is the ethical code of behavior that the /r/atheist community expects from it's members? Are there any ethical boundaries for atheists when addressing non-atheists on reddit? What type of enforcement does the atheist community impose on users who abuse or harass other members? is there such an ethical code? Would you say that there is an ethical code that any significant group of members of /r/atheism adhere to? If so what is it, and how many do this, and who enforces the code of ethics on those who do not?

Your justification of censorship.

We are establishing the policy on abuse and harassment. Would you like to contribute some ideas on what are acceptable boundaries? Your input is welcome. You seem concerned about this? Why not stick around and help make sure the rules are as inclusive as possible? Maybe you have a great model of how you would like this to work? Please share I am all ears.

"actively (running) away from the responsibility"

There's no spin on that. The moderator accounts with whom I talked over that summer, literally stated they wanted nothing to do with it, if they responded at all and most of them quite soon after that resigned from moderating /r/atheism. Tuber, who I knew from well before the subreddit era, and for whom I have lots of respect, stated at the time he no longer believed in reddit and wanted to take the vast number of atheist account to a new community of his creation.

Two days ago, I sought out skeen the creator of /r/atheism before I banned the current accounts and made the announcement that headlines this submission. I sent him a long letter detailing exactly the nonsense these accounts were doing with links. He promptly replied that the account holder was clearly an ass, and that he did not put up with asses in /r/atheism. Our conversation is ongoing and he has welcomed future correspondence with regard to the development of our community governance.

Do you seriously believe

Given the way the some of the previous trolling in /r/Christianity has been referenced within the /r/athiesm, some of the activity in the past was neither innocent nor accidental. This is pretty widely understood, but you can dig through outsiders links to see what was impacted by what he cited. I speculate on motive using occam's razor, making the assumption that rather than being vile people only seeking self amusement that there is some logical structure behind the activity. Certainly outgroup identification of Christians is a large psychological motivator of some of the worst behavior witnessed on this subreddit. I am actually very interested in this topic, as I often wonder how atheism as a human philosophy self organizes absent a core text and core ritual.

with insulting a large heterogeneous group for the insincere actions of one or two people.

Thank you for acknowledging the reality of abusive behavior by atheistically oriented accounts. Determining the actual number will be easier once we have established our community behavior policies.

And then there's your boy Outsider

In that thread outsider documents several instances of soliciting votes and coordinating behavior within /r/atheism to effect outcomes in /r/Christianity. That in itself is a noteworthy contribution don't you think? The observation that the oscillations of an electrical field can create a magnetic field which in turn can create an electric field and so on and so forth, changes our understanding of how things work. One could say it illuminates things. Collusion within a larger group to negatively affect a smaller group is very relevant to the current situation.

As for the "evangelism hypothesis". It seems pretty well accepted.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

Collectively we can do much more than anyone could individually.

Request from the Moderator: If the argumentative and disrespectful traffic picks up again contact me immediately.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

Wow! The account above doesn't even have the character to stick around after making an accusation. Bravo!

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

Posts like this absolutely encourages people trolling.

yeah, to some extend trolling is about attention seeking. However in the case of religious evangelism, which is effectively what many of these atheist trolls are trying to do, it's not enough to just ignore it. There needs to be public documentation for others to read, so when the account returns to the home community and pulls the 4 year old "MMMOMMM he's hitting me again...", any interest person can verify for themselves that the accuser is less than credible.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

he deleted some of his submissions after they were banned.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 2 points3 points 1 day ago[-]

You want to allege bias? Bring on the data.

Look at all of my submissions and comments, build a social map and attempt to prove your point.

If you have problems with the behavior of an /r/Christianity member you could have brought that to my attention at any time with links and evidence. I have yet to receive any such reddit mail from any atheist redditor. Further I now have an active relationship with skeen the moderator and creator of /r/atheism, so if you want, send it to him first and have him copy me.

The whole point of the policy post you cited is to develop a public community standard and support consistently ethical accounts to empower them to create ethical solutions. Atheists are certainly invited to participate in the community as well is in it's rule creation and rule enforcement. But the requirement is for an account of any background do demonstrate consistent ethical behavior in doing these things.

You are alleging some type of discrimination, I am willing to hear your case. Let's see the details.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 1 point2 points 1 day ago[-]

Exactly too much can be just as bad. Hopefully we can determine a healthy balance as a community.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 1 point2 points 1 day ago[-]

ideally self-credentialing should grow the community to the point where trolling will just be downvoted to oblivion quickly. The Reddit platform is better than most at this, but it still needs some work. This subreddit will ultimately be a good data collector to develop more sophisticated software to handle these problems.

Look how many interested and positive accounts this whole incident has brought forward!!

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 2 points3 points 1 day ago[-]

The reason that I complained was that smacfarl asked for us to help self-police. When I saw the blatant repetition of trolling posts, with no attempt by the poster to engage in discourse, I saw this as a direct attack on the usefulness of this forum. I have gained a lot from being called out for what I believe. I hope those I have spoken with have gained a lot by hearing what I have to say.

Thank you for rolling up your sleeves and digging in. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

We are very much interested in disagreement as well as the vast diversity of opinion represent online. Spamming and abuse - not so much.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

Did you send a reddit mail via the moderator mail link on the /r/Christianity front page? I don't think I saw it there. If and when you see things like this in the future please feel free to use the facility.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 1 point2 points 1 day ago* [-]

Your report puts an orange highlight in my view of the page, as well as adds the article or comment to the reports page. But there is no indication of who reported it, or why. By the time I get to looking at the page the item is often at 0 or negative points, which means the group has handled it.

Most trolls just want attention. if they are donvoted to obscurity and ignored it short circuits the reward process they get from their attempts a passive-aggressive abuse and leads to them eventually desisting. unfortuneatly our community is not large enough yet to have this happen 24/7 as a matter of normal operation. Hence the need for moderator intervention, currently.

Please provide markdown links to the submission(s) or comment(s) with an explanation of what's youar addressing in reddit mail via the Mail Moderator link to get a quick response. The report function does not supply enough context in it's current implementation to be useful.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago* [-]

faith caricature stories will probably keep coming back

They will be drowned in downvotes when the community grows a little more.

However it is important to clearly address and identify the absolute shallowness of the majority of these arguments. Most of them are not novel and are literally copy/paste/trim jobs on far older material that was more than adequately addressed by Christian apologetics, going back in some cases to the first century AD.

Consider this contribution by account grsmurf.

Someone has taken the time to completely strip out the context of John 13-16, probably some of the most profound and heart wrenching text of the gospels, in order to try highlight the shallowest most surface reading of the text to indicate there is a logical error in the narrative. A thorough reading of the actual passages as well as an detailed examination of what was chosen for presentation in grsmurf's linked comic and what was excluded reveals much about the quality of the comment being made as well as the intentions of it's author.

There is a clear opportunity to share the gospel as well as to utterly expose the vapidity of the attackers and the attack, much as Obama did when dealing with House Republicans on Health Care on C-SPAN recently. Atheists, frankly should feel humiliated and embarrassed to be represented by these types of arguments and the low horse power/low maturity accounts advocating them. Is it the goal of /rr/atheism to nurture a 4chan style content culture? Maybe some community reflection is needed on the other side of the fence.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

There are several rhetoric technique that are essentially an attack on the communication interchange itself. Spamming is essentially a limited effect Denial of Service attack, as it takes some cycles away from the actual discussion.

Once this type of behavior is identified as intentional it has to be stopped, until the system can be redesigned to prevent such abuses.

Often times this type of think is what happens to Noam Chomsky for example when he is interviewed on television, or host in within a television debate forum. Lat time I checked I think Noam is also an atheist/agnostic.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 1 day ago[-]

Did Jesus let others be tormented?

Did Jesus let others be abused under his authority?

Spirits who sought solely to torment and abuse were cast out. Would ancient society have put up with this type of behavior? Does modern society put up with this type of behavior in person to person dealings?

To put our hands over other people's mouths is very christian like

Are you trying to make a doctrinal argument? If this is the case place cite some evidence. Because your position does not seem to hold together even logically.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 1 point2 points 2 days ago[-]

yeah I typically try and document with quotes from the other person within my own responses to stuff from accounts like this for this very reason.

What an unclear run-on sentence!

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 2 days ago[-]

Your comments are still there. If they were in response to a banned comment they aren't visible directly but they haven't gone anywhere.

Here is your math teacher comment.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 3 points4 points 2 days ago[-]

Christian as practiced by some non-trivial number? Or Christian as Christ intended?

I like to refer to Christian as things Christ did. Some spirits he did cast out. But he always did so transparently and publicly.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 3 points4 points 2 days ago* [-]

Agreed. I want there to be a transparent policy on the banning, as well as lots of community involvement in the judgement of behavior that leads to bans. Eventually we can have a publicly created, agreed upon, and modifiable, /r/Christianity reddiquette legal framework for handling those whose intentions are solely intended to disrupt. The idea being that people from outside /r/Christianity can look through details of the actions, the analysis, and the consequences and decide for themselves whether it was just. All things in righteousness.

Disagreement and dissent should be permitted, but there clearly needs to be some multidimensional boundaries in place to handle abuse and other negative intentions.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 1 point2 points 2 days ago[-]

But if pointing stuff out is working

Yeah, This is my fault. I haven't been reading the report section. All it does is highlight the article it doesn't say who reported or why. I haven't ever used that area because I didn't like it's lack of information, but having just gone there for the second time since they implemented it I see a lot of reported articles. So my apologies for not paying attention.

The best method is to send a reddit mail via the moderator side panel button, with a link and an explanation in format similar to your current comment. It's these kind of explanations that I have been counting as complaints for the current ban.

let alone the months or so of grsmurf trolling almost every single one* of my posts and my complaints then that went unanswered.

My fault again. Looking through my profile, I don't see too many reddit mails from you after the whole Ekklesia thing. My apologies for failing your messaging.

If there was persecution going on I wanted to know about it. I posted another policy message recently and hoped to get this kind of feedback from everyone at that time. Please forgive me.

that are just barbs and digs that shouldn't be tolerated

When this kind of thing start to happen, after you have attempted to address it directly, immediately go to the moderator or seek out support of the others who have been credentialed.

here is an example of an atheist who is being responsible.

Anyone who acts ethically consistently deserves credit. And coordination between people who have transparently demonstrated good ethics to handle people simply intending to cause problems, should be the natural response.

Once there is a consensus which should be pretty quick given the number of accounts who are now actively policing it should be pretty quick to get a direct intervention and consequences.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 2 days ago* [-]

all he has to do is register another account. that takes like 5 seconds.

Sure does. copy and paste doesn't take much effort either.

Are you here just to spit out abuse? What's going on in your life? Tell me about who you really are.

So you have my attention. Let's talk.

Edit: Really this got downvoted? Really?

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 2 points3 points 2 days ago[-]

So now that you have my attention what do you want?

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 0 points1 point 2 days ago* [-]

So aletheia provided this link.

The guy is clearly obnoxious. His complaint numbers have not yet matched the currently banned accounts, sparks at least is attempting a dialog. The current guy is essentially a spammer. But yeah we need to have a good policy for dealing with the vast variety of hostility /r/Christianity attracts.

Congratulations! First two bans.

smacfarl [S] 4 points5 points 2 days ago* [-]

He must have been really offensive

Not really. It was simply passive agressive spamming. I will submit a more complete accounting of this decision later, as well as more formal policy.

You can read the rest of the comments submitted in user 23f34ef32's profile to get an idea of the mental framework and attitude behind the actions.

What mattered to me was the number and volume of consistent complaints he generated from active, reliable, and credible community members.

Edit: Not that you're the same account under a different name or anything.

Glenn Greenwald - Has Rahm's assumption about progressives been vindicated?

smacfarl 1 point2 points 2 days ago[-]

In this instance certainly. Will this always be the case? Dunno.

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